<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
		>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: Abraham&#8217;s Adultery</title>
	<atom:link href="http://nowthinkaboutit.com/2009/09/abrahams-adultery/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://nowthinkaboutit.com/2009/09/abrahams-adultery/</link>
	<description>Inviting Fair Discussion On God Issues...And A Few Things More</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Sun, 05 Sep 2010 04:31:32 +0000</lastBuildDate>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=3.0.1</generator>
	<item>
		<title>By: Moses Massacres Midian &#124; NowTHINK!AboutIt</title>
		<link>http://nowthinkaboutit.com/2009/09/abrahams-adultery/comment-page-1/#comment-2318</link>
		<dc:creator>Moses Massacres Midian &#124; NowTHINK!AboutIt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Jan 2010 04:29:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://nowthinkaboutit.com/?p=506#comment-2318</guid>
		<description>[...] is fair to be forgiving. Abraham and Sara were faced with difficult and unusual circumstances. But justifying polygamy as anything other than adultery is going a little too far and that is what [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] is fair to be forgiving. Abraham and Sara were faced with difficult and unusual circumstances. But justifying polygamy as anything other than adultery is going a little too far and that is what [...]</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Abraham's Adultery And Divorce &#124; NowTHINK!AboutIt</title>
		<link>http://nowthinkaboutit.com/2009/09/abrahams-adultery/comment-page-1/#comment-2104</link>
		<dc:creator>Abraham's Adultery And Divorce &#124; NowTHINK!AboutIt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Dec 2009 11:28:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://nowthinkaboutit.com/?p=506#comment-2104</guid>
		<description>[...] In Abraham’s case he gave affection to Hagar which he previously promised to Sara. His relationship to Hagar was legally right but personally wrong. It was adultery. Sara was offended and insulted that Abraham was foolish enough to entertain the suggestion.  All she wanted was understanding and reassurance. She got neither. A full discussion on why Abraham was vulnerable to this suggestion can be found here. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] In Abraham’s case he gave affection to Hagar which he previously promised to Sara. His relationship to Hagar was legally right but personally wrong. It was adultery. Sara was offended and insulted that Abraham was foolish enough to entertain the suggestion.  All she wanted was understanding and reassurance. She got neither. A full discussion on why Abraham was vulnerable to this suggestion can be found here. [...]</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: EnnisP</title>
		<link>http://nowthinkaboutit.com/2009/09/abrahams-adultery/comment-page-1/#comment-2064</link>
		<dc:creator>EnnisP</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Oct 2009 06:21:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://nowthinkaboutit.com/?p=506#comment-2064</guid>
		<description>There are several reasons I would argue that Abraham did not father children with more than three women and no more than one son before Isaac.

One, in Gen. 15 Abraham expressed frustration over not having any children and questioned God if Eliezer, his stewart, not his offspring was to become the heir.  He clearly says God had given him no children (seed, offspring) and that couldn&#039;t have been the case if there were other wives and children existing.

Two, the phrase &quot;born in my house&quot; refers to people born to families employed by Abraham.  In Gen. 14 three hundred of these people were referred to as his private militia.  That, of course, would suggest there were more than just three hundred in the &quot;born in my house&quot; category and for these people to be sired by Abraham he would have needed many wives, possibly hundreds.  If he already had that many wives Hagar wouldn&#039;t have been needed and siring children by her wouldn&#039;t have been such a frictious situation, just another wife in a long line of many.

Three, men today have children as late as 90+ (Les Colley) and we don&#039;t really know if there is a &quot;sale by&quot; date for the production of live sperm nor do we know what age that occurs if there is.  And, given the difference in average life span between then and now, Abraham was the biological equivalent of approximately 60 years old when he fathered Isaac, no miracle there.  The miracle was Sara conceiving and carrying a child to term, not only because of her age (her menstrual cycles had probably ceases, Gen. 18:11) but because she had been barren for so long.  The phrase &quot;as good as dead&quot; can easily refer to the lateness of his age not inability to produce sperm and it was describing the appearance of the situation not scientific facts.

Four, if Abraham had fathered sons, other than Ishmael, before Isaac he would have had a much harder time giving the birthright to Isaac.  It could have happened, to be sure, but there would have been a lot more to report.  Joseph, by far not the firstborn, inherited the leadership of the family in his day but not easily and not without a lot of agitation.  The story is long and rough.  Not much is said about Isaac&#039;s other brothers getting in the way or causing any problems.  Why?  Ishmael wasn&#039;t the son of promise.  The others were born after Isaac.

Five, when Abraham was buried there were only two sons who were mentioned as respected survivors, Ishmael and Isaac.  

Six, I don&#039;t doubt Abraham loved Ishmael, he was the fatherly type, but nowhere does it say he loved him more.  It was Isaac who favored one child over the other and allowed that sentiment to cloud his judgment.  Abraham grieved, not because he loved one more than the other but because Sara wanted Hagar and her offspring exiled.  Abraham hesitated and probably prayed about this matter because he wanted to be certain.  The last time he listened to Sara without thinking and praying Ishmael was born.  He didn&#039;t want to start any more wars.

Seventh, the Bible has always reported the pertinent facts freely, even when embarrassing (maybe we should say especially).  As you mentioned, the polygamous status of other patriarchs and notable leaders is clearly stated (along with all the trouble it caused) but there is nothing said about Abraham having many concubines as you have suggested.  And, it was precisely the one concubine mentioned, Hagar, that created all the problems.  

Thanks for the visit and the comments.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There are several reasons I would argue that Abraham did not father children with more than three women and no more than one son before Isaac.</p>
<p>One, in Gen. 15 Abraham expressed frustration over not having any children and questioned God if Eliezer, his stewart, not his offspring was to become the heir.  He clearly says God had given him no children (seed, offspring) and that couldn&#8217;t have been the case if there were other wives and children existing.</p>
<p>Two, the phrase &#8220;born in my house&#8221; refers to people born to families employed by Abraham.  In Gen. 14 three hundred of these people were referred to as his private militia.  That, of course, would suggest there were more than just three hundred in the &#8220;born in my house&#8221; category and for these people to be sired by Abraham he would have needed many wives, possibly hundreds.  If he already had that many wives Hagar wouldn&#8217;t have been needed and siring children by her wouldn&#8217;t have been such a frictious situation, just another wife in a long line of many.</p>
<p>Three, men today have children as late as 90+ (Les Colley) and we don&#8217;t really know if there is a &#8220;sale by&#8221; date for the production of live sperm nor do we know what age that occurs if there is.  And, given the difference in average life span between then and now, Abraham was the biological equivalent of approximately 60 years old when he fathered Isaac, no miracle there.  The miracle was Sara conceiving and carrying a child to term, not only because of her age (her menstrual cycles had probably ceases, Gen. 18:11) but because she had been barren for so long.  The phrase &#8220;as good as dead&#8221; can easily refer to the lateness of his age not inability to produce sperm and it was describing the appearance of the situation not scientific facts.</p>
<p>Four, if Abraham had fathered sons, other than Ishmael, before Isaac he would have had a much harder time giving the birthright to Isaac.  It could have happened, to be sure, but there would have been a lot more to report.  Joseph, by far not the firstborn, inherited the leadership of the family in his day but not easily and not without a lot of agitation.  The story is long and rough.  Not much is said about Isaac&#8217;s other brothers getting in the way or causing any problems.  Why?  Ishmael wasn&#8217;t the son of promise.  The others were born after Isaac.</p>
<p>Five, when Abraham was buried there were only two sons who were mentioned as respected survivors, Ishmael and Isaac.  </p>
<p>Six, I don&#8217;t doubt Abraham loved Ishmael, he was the fatherly type, but nowhere does it say he loved him more.  It was Isaac who favored one child over the other and allowed that sentiment to cloud his judgment.  Abraham grieved, not because he loved one more than the other but because Sara wanted Hagar and her offspring exiled.  Abraham hesitated and probably prayed about this matter because he wanted to be certain.  The last time he listened to Sara without thinking and praying Ishmael was born.  He didn&#8217;t want to start any more wars.</p>
<p>Seventh, the Bible has always reported the pertinent facts freely, even when embarrassing (maybe we should say especially).  As you mentioned, the polygamous status of other patriarchs and notable leaders is clearly stated (along with all the trouble it caused) but there is nothing said about Abraham having many concubines as you have suggested.  And, it was precisely the one concubine mentioned, Hagar, that created all the problems.  </p>
<p>Thanks for the visit and the comments.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Thomas Twitchell</title>
		<link>http://nowthinkaboutit.com/2009/09/abrahams-adultery/comment-page-1/#comment-2063</link>
		<dc:creator>Thomas Twitchell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Oct 2009 22:56:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://nowthinkaboutit.com/?p=506#comment-2063</guid>
		<description>&quot;Then Abraham took Ishmael his son and all those born in his house or bought with his money, every male among the men of Abraham&#039;s house, and he circumcised the flesh of their foreskins that very day, as God had said to him.&quot;

Who are thes born in his household? Could they be: &quot;But to the sons of his concubines Abraham gave gifts, and while he was still living he sent them away from his son Isaac, eastward to the east country.&quot;

There is no reason to believe that the ones born in Abraham&#039;s household are not, in some number, the issue of his own body.

A question that needs to be asked also is just when did Abraham take Keturah to be his wife. We remember that Sarah gave her handmaiden, Haggar, as a wife to Abraham. But where did Keturah come from and just when did she enter the picture? It is easier to suppose that Abraham had more than one wife, before Haggar. Also, it cannot be denied that he had concubines by whom he also had sons. But, Scripture tells us that he was as good as dead when Isaac was conceived and parallels him with Sarah, as unable to concieve children. Which most likely means that Keturah bore him children earlier than the sequencial chapter rendering would have lead one to assume and so also his other concubines most likely bore him children before Isaac. In other words, Abraham had other concubines and wives, and Scripture does not say that he ever gave them up. Nor does it say that having other wives and concubines is the reason for God&#039;s correction of Abraham concerning Haggar. It concludes that Abraham had like Jacob, David and Solomon after him, multiple wives and concubines. It was his wife, Sarah, who lead Abraham astray (relexive of the garden) to deny the promised provision of God. We also have this witness, that Abraham loved Ishmael more. And even though Scripture calls Isaac his only son, Abraham, did not consider that to be true, but petitioned God that Ishmael, not Isaac, be the heir. 

Did he learn his lesson? Depends on what lesson. It wasn&#039;t the lesson of adultery. He didn&#039;t learn the lesson of not taking multiple wives and Scripture is silent as to whether or not he had them at the time of his death. However, the reading is that they are still his in his old age after Sarah and that their sons were also with him until he sent them east. The conclusion is that the story has nothing to do with adultery. Abraham most likely died an adulterer just as David did. The story has to do with God&#039;s provision and not the efforts of the flesh, period, regardless of the other circumstances of Abraham&#039;s life.

Does Abraham learn a lesson of faith? Well that also depends on what you mean. Though we learn about the faith, though we grow in confidence in it by what we learn and experience, there is no doubt. But faith, proper, is not something we learn, it is a free gift of God not an aquired habit of man. And beside that, though one man waters and another plants, it is God, and always so, who gives the increase.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Then Abraham took Ishmael his son and all those born in his house or bought with his money, every male among the men of Abraham&#8217;s house, and he circumcised the flesh of their foreskins that very day, as God had said to him.&#8221;</p>
<p>Who are thes born in his household? Could they be: &#8220;But to the sons of his concubines Abraham gave gifts, and while he was still living he sent them away from his son Isaac, eastward to the east country.&#8221;</p>
<p>There is no reason to believe that the ones born in Abraham&#8217;s household are not, in some number, the issue of his own body.</p>
<p>A question that needs to be asked also is just when did Abraham take Keturah to be his wife. We remember that Sarah gave her handmaiden, Haggar, as a wife to Abraham. But where did Keturah come from and just when did she enter the picture? It is easier to suppose that Abraham had more than one wife, before Haggar. Also, it cannot be denied that he had concubines by whom he also had sons. But, Scripture tells us that he was as good as dead when Isaac was conceived and parallels him with Sarah, as unable to concieve children. Which most likely means that Keturah bore him children earlier than the sequencial chapter rendering would have lead one to assume and so also his other concubines most likely bore him children before Isaac. In other words, Abraham had other concubines and wives, and Scripture does not say that he ever gave them up. Nor does it say that having other wives and concubines is the reason for God&#8217;s correction of Abraham concerning Haggar. It concludes that Abraham had like Jacob, David and Solomon after him, multiple wives and concubines. It was his wife, Sarah, who lead Abraham astray (relexive of the garden) to deny the promised provision of God. We also have this witness, that Abraham loved Ishmael more. And even though Scripture calls Isaac his only son, Abraham, did not consider that to be true, but petitioned God that Ishmael, not Isaac, be the heir. </p>
<p>Did he learn his lesson? Depends on what lesson. It wasn&#8217;t the lesson of adultery. He didn&#8217;t learn the lesson of not taking multiple wives and Scripture is silent as to whether or not he had them at the time of his death. However, the reading is that they are still his in his old age after Sarah and that their sons were also with him until he sent them east. The conclusion is that the story has nothing to do with adultery. Abraham most likely died an adulterer just as David did. The story has to do with God&#8217;s provision and not the efforts of the flesh, period, regardless of the other circumstances of Abraham&#8217;s life.</p>
<p>Does Abraham learn a lesson of faith? Well that also depends on what you mean. Though we learn about the faith, though we grow in confidence in it by what we learn and experience, there is no doubt. But faith, proper, is not something we learn, it is a free gift of God not an aquired habit of man. And beside that, though one man waters and another plants, it is God, and always so, who gives the increase.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>
