Evangelism – Nation to Nation
Filed under: Answering an Atheist, Old Testament, Philosophy, Political Issues
Answering An Atheist
Original arguments are found in the post “Top Ten Worst Bible Stories”
On the web site “Not A Potted Plant” (NAPP)
Author – Transplanted Lawyer (TL)
This post is number four in a continuing discussion on the conflict between Israel and Moab/Midian as recorded in the Book of Numbers, chapters 22-25 and 31. The original observations – complaints – regarding this event are made by TL which can be read here (number one on his list of ten). My first response is here and his first counter is here.
Because TL is widely read and has an exceptionally quick mind I consider it a privilege to have him as a sparring partner. No doubt his abilities will suit him well for the bench should his aspirations in that regard be realized. His quick thinking has made me sharpen my game.
The discussion with him is incisive without insult and firm but in a respectful way. I know you will enjoy the read also.
Suffice it to say that the event under discussion seems particularly gruesome. It was war and war is never nice even under the best of circumstances. As TL and countless others have pointed out, a certain number of deaths are expected but in the case of Midian it seems a bit extreme. The entire community was destroyed, even young boys, with the exception of virgin girls. I can’t imagine anyone not being disturbed by it.
Obviously, because God was involved in this situation – He ordered the counter attack in the first place – it is easy to assume that everything Moses ordered was exactly God’s plan. I don’t presume to understand everything God does but I do believe there are reasons He should not be implicated every time difficulties arise. He is a third party, sometimes silently so, and we must at least try to see where the fault lines lay before assuming His guilt. Previously I have suggested that Moses acted in the extreme and went beyond God’s original intent.
My primary arguments are:
- Israel was not the aggressor.
- The intentions of Moab/Midian were clearly violent but their strategy was cleverly deceptive. They tried to divine a curse on Israel and when that failed they used wile, enticing them with their sexually oriented religion, to demoralize them. The second plan worked but not sufficiently enough to destroy Israel’s or God’s resolve.
- God ordered the attack on Midian but did not specify the extent to which it should be executed.
- The women who were destroyed were frontline soldiers or spies, not collateral damage or the subjects of a genocidal frenzy. Without them the ruse would not have been effective. His order to execute them, therefore, is not completely without justification.
- I have argued that the order to destroy every male came from Moses not God. This is the real issue.
Everyone is very quick to take the Midianite side and speak of their anguish but not fair minded enough to spread that love around, ascribing to Israel (and God) a venomous nature. The truth is, Israelites were just as human as any and “rising above” was sometimes out of reach for them as well. Israel had very good reason to be hurting from this event and it doesn’t take a degree in psychology to figure it out.
It was only because Midianites were distant relatives of Moses and because Israel’s first encounter with a Midianite (Jethro – Moses’ father-in-law) was positive that the ruse was as effective as it was.
It is not unreasonable to see this was personal for Moses and it isn’t strange that his response would be so vengeful.
As mentioned previously, his worst characteristic was his anger and it had gotten him into trouble on more than one occasion. He also had a tendency to take action impulsively and God pronounced a final judgment on Moses as recent as Numbers 20. He was to die before entering the promised land and Joshua would take his place.
Even as God gave the order to counter Midian aggression He reminded Moses that he would be removed from the scene following the battle. I’m sure that reminder laid heavily on his mind. It doesn’t justify his actions but it does explain it.
In his rebuttal TL makes additional suggestions which I would like to answer here: Read more
Moses Massacres Midian
Filed under: Answering an Atheist, Old Testament, Political Issues
Answering An Atheist
Original arguments are found in the post “Top Ten Worst Bible Stories”
On the web site “Not A Potted Plant” (NAPP)
Author – Transplanted Lawyer (TL)
There are two absolute No-No’s when reading the Bible. One is never wear rose tinted glasses (Christians do this) and the other is don’t precondition the text with modern perspectives (critics do this). Christians tend to extract from the text sentiments that aren’t there. Critics do just the opposite, imposing on the text preconceived ideas. Both start with an assumption and then proceed to draw it out or weave it into the text. Both approaches narrow the mind and have the same affect, distortion. Neither is really honest.
Take Abraham for example. He fathered his first child by Hagar, his wife’s handmaid – polygamous. According to cultural practices of the day this was acceptable but according to biblical teachings it was not.
It is fair to be forgiving. Abraham and Sara were faced with difficult and unusual circumstances. But justifying polygamy as anything other than adultery is going a little too far and that is what believers tend to do.
Non-believers, particularly atheists, are quick to pounce on that. Polygamy, or any other form of sexual divergence, may or may not be a problem for them but they are clever enough to see the contradiction between what the Bible teaches in one place and what believers say it teaches in another. Read more
Slavery, Rape and Gays In the OT
Filed under: Answering an Atheist, Debate, Old Testament, Political Issues
Answering An Atheist
Original arguments are found in the post “Top Ten Worst Bible Stories”
On the web site “Not A Potted Plant” (NAPP)
Author – Transplanted Lawyer (TL)
Some parts of the Bible are admittedly difficult to understand and for that reason can be easily misconstrued by those who don’t believe.
Unfortunately, believers (and I am one) tend to skirt these issues or flavor them very favorably in light of the way people think, feel or act today. We over-read benevolence on the part of the Hebrews and overstate malice on the part of their enemies. Those of the opposing opinion easily recognize the bias and readily point it out.
Before we Christians judge and dismiss them, however, we must admit that they couldn’t make the criticism if they hadn’t at least read the Bible and the popular ideas associated with it. In fact, I have often been amazed at the clarity with which nonbelievers have articulated what we believers think. They have listened and we should respect that.
Recently I came across a blog authored by “Transplanted Lawer” (TL) who openly admits to being an “atheist” and, true to form, has asked some very pointed questions about difficult passages in the Bible. He actually targeted ten Bible stories he considers the worst and after saying what he thought was bad about them left an open challenge for anyone to respond. I accepted.
No, I’m probably not the best person for this task but I am interested and besides I like this guy. He has a great sense of humor, plays Scrabble, is agreeably conversational and fair. He has a fair knowledge of Christian issues and has been a reasonable antagonist. You can see his original challenge here, his acknowledgement of my acceptance here and so far I have responded to:
These are stories number 8, 2 and 5 respectively.
Before reading his blog I had written a post that answers number 10 on his list, accusing Jesus of racism. I left a link to my post on his blog and he was responsive enough to read it and comment.
The topics we’ve discussed so far are interesting but none of them carry the same weight as the three issues we look at now which are, in TL’s words:
- It’s okay to have slaves as long as you don’t beat them too badly. Number 7
Should a slave owner strike a male or female slave with a rod, and the slave dies immediately, the owner shall surely be punished. But if the slave survives a day or two, there shall be no punishment; for the slave is the owner’s property. Exodus 20:20-21
- Rape victims must marry their assailants. Number 6
If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, he shall pay the girl’s father fifty shekels of silver. He must marry the girl, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives. Deuteronomy 22:28-29
- Capital punishment for homosexuality. Number 4
If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them. Leviticus 20:13. Read more
Egypt Destroyed In Exodus
The following is a report on recent findings in Egypt by Breaking News correspondent Al Quiet.
Egyptologists recently uncovered a news story which broke shortly after the Exodus. The translation reads…
“On a certain day, God showed up unexpectedly in the court of Pharaoh and through His minister, Moses, made demands on Pharaoh to let His people go. After many rounds of negotiations and following several minor irritant plagues, in which God showed He was more than capable of pulling this thing off, our great leader, Pharaoh, put his back up and God had no choice but to eventually destroy the entire Egyptian army.
The outcome? After many years of enslavement, Moses led Israel to freedom and they took most of the Egyptian Gross National Savings with them as they went. Watching their exit toward the horizon we had to admit that we sort of had it coming. They were basically a peace loving people, non-militaristic, who took care of our undesirable tasks, herding animals, and we unilaterally relegated them to slavery making their lives very hard, at one point even trying to kill their male born children. And the moral of the story? What goes around, comes around.
There are many in Egypt who believe Pharaoh should have backed off from the start and with his demise a more reasonable successor will be sought. His cabinet will be replaced also but this time with counselors who hopefully can be more persuasive than the last group.
It was a bad phase in Egyptian history but we are glad to put it behind us. Admittedly, rebuilding the economy will be a challenge without all the slaves.” Read more
The Blessing of Original Sin
Filed under: Answering an Atheist, Old Testament, Salvation
Answering An Atheist
Original arguments are found in the post “Top Ten Worst Bible Stories”
On the web site “Not A Potted Plant” (NAPP)
Author – Transplanted Lawyer (TL)
I wouldn’t call myself a debater but I do enjoy a little verbal dueling occasionally. If the discussion isn’t reduced to exchanging personal attacks it can be very useful. For me it stimulates thought.
So I don’t mind it when people of an opposing opinion suggest something totally different to what I understand to be true. If I am wrong I should change and if I am correct then I should develop the ability to articulate my understanding clearly. Discussion serves both purposes.
For that reason I began answering criticisms of the Bible offered by an atheist – pen name “Transplanted Lawyer” (TL). He listed ten of what he considered the worst Bible stories and suggested what he saw as problems with each. Not very original but in his case the attitude is different (more agreeable to discussion) and he does make some fresh observations, interesting. In fact, he is an interesting person in many ways. Despite our differences he seems to be very normal, down to earth and decent. You can check out his profile here.
If you like these types of discussion then maybe you’ll enjoy the read.
Criticism number 5 on his list involves Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden. Obviously, there are many details to discuss in that short story but he focuses on the original sin or more specifically its after effects. He sees it as leading to improvements in human experience. Actually, in principle, I don’t disagree but our interpretations are quite different. His words are…
Original sin is making up your own mind about good and evil.
His arguments summarized are:
- He assumes the injunction not to eat of the tree was a means of keeping Adam and Eve from growing personally, i.e., thinking, experimenting, and learning particularly in regard to moral issues but ultimately leading to “a rejection of knowledge itself — a moral condemnation of learning and education.”
- The wisdom gained from eating the forbidden fruit enabled them to recognize the shame of their nakedness and they rightly manufactured clothing to correct this.
- God further disparaged their ability to think, act and create for themselves when He replaced their fig leaf clothes with skins from animals, a form of brow beating.
- Without elaborating on the issue, TL insinuates God was responsible for the whole problem anyway since He placed Adam and Eve in such close proximity to temptation.
- He implies that Satan is implicated but without malfeasance suggesting he was doing what any decent person would do for the oppressed. Read more
Tim Pepper - Beautiful Frustration