Slavery, Rape and Gays In the OT
Filed under: Answering an Atheist, Old Testament, Political Issues
Answering An Atheist
Original arguments are found in the post “Top Ten Worst Bible Stories”
On the web site “Not A Potted Plant” (NAPP)
Author – Transplanted Lawyer (TL)
The Complaint
Slavery
Rape
Gays
Some parts of the Bible are admittedly difficult to understand and for that reason can be easily misconstrued by those who don’t believe.
Unfortunately, believers (and I am one) tend to skirt these issues or flavor them very favorably in light of the way people think, feel or act today. We over-read benevolence on the part of the Hebrews and overstate malice on the part of their enemies. Those of the opposing opinion easily recognize the bias and readily point it out.
Before we Christians judge and dismiss them, however, we must admit that they couldn’t make the criticism if they hadn’t at least read the Bible and the popular ideas associated with it. In fact, I have often been amazed at the clarity with which nonbelievers have articulated what we believers think. They have listened and we should respect that.
Recently I came across a blog authored by “Transplanted Lawer” (TL) who openly admits to being an “atheist” and, true to form, has asked some very pointed questions about difficult passages in the Bible. He actually targeted ten Bible stories he considers the worst and after saying what he thought was bad about them left an open challenge for anyone to respond. I accepted.
No, I’m probably not the best person for this task but I am interested and besides I like this guy. He has a great sense of humor, plays Scrabble, is agreeably conversational and fair. He has a fair knowledge of Christian issues and has been a reasonable antagonist. You can see his original challenge here, his acknowledgement of my acceptance here and so far I have responded to:
These are stories number 8, 2 and 5 respectively.
Before reading his blog I had written a post that answers number 10 on his list, accusing Jesus of racism. I left a link to my post on his blog and he was responsive enough to read it and comment.
The topics we’ve discussed so far are interesting but none of them carry the same weight as the three issues we look at now which are, in TL’s words:
- It’s okay to have slaves as long as you don’t beat them too badly. Number 7
Should a slave owner strike a male or female slave with a rod, and the slave dies immediately, the owner shall surely be punished. But if the slave survives a day or two, there shall be no punishment; for the slave is the owner’s property. Exodus 20:20-21
- Rape victims must marry their assailants. Number 6
If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, he shall pay the girl’s father fifty shekels of silver. He must marry the girl, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives. Deuteronomy 22:28-29
- Capital punishment for homosexuality. Number 4
If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them. Leviticus 20:13. Read more
Egypt Destroyed In Exodus
The following is a report on recent findings in Egypt by Breaking News correspondent Al Quiet.
Egyptologists recently uncovered a news story which broke shortly after the Exodus. The translation reads…
“On a certain day, God showed up unexpectedly in the court of Pharaoh and through His minister, Moses, made demands on Pharaoh to let His people go. After many rounds of negotiations and following several minor irritant plagues, in which God showed He was more than capable of pulling this thing off, our great leader, Pharaoh, put his back up and God had no choice but to eventually destroy the entire Egyptian army.
The outcome? After many years of enslavement, Moses led Israel to freedom and they took most of the Egyptian Gross National Savings with them as they went. Watching their exit toward the horizon we had to admit that we sort of had it coming. They were basically a peace loving people, non-militaristic, who took care of our undesirable tasks, herding animals, and we unilaterally relegated them to slavery making their lives very hard, at one point even trying to kill their male born children. And the moral of the story? What goes around, comes around.
There are many in Egypt who believe Pharaoh should have backed off from the start and with his demise a more reasonable successor will be sought. His cabinet will be replaced also but this time with counselors who hopefully can be more persuasive than the last group.
It was a bad phase in Egyptian history but we are glad to put it behind us. Admittedly, rebuilding the economy will be a challenge without all the slaves.” Read more
The Blessing of Original Sin
Filed under: Answering an Atheist, Old Testament, Salvation
Answering An Atheist
Original arguments are found in the post “Top Ten Worst Bible Stories”
On the web site “Not A Potted Plant” (NAPP)
Author – Transplanted Lawyer (TL)
I wouldn’t call myself a debater but I do enjoy a little verbal dueling occasionally. If the discussion isn’t reduced to exchanging personal attacks it can be very useful. For me it stimulates thought.
So I don’t mind it when people of an opposing opinion suggest something totally different to what I understand to be true. If I am wrong I should change and if I am correct then I should develop the ability to articulate my understanding clearly. Discussion serves both purposes.
For that reason I began answering criticisms of the Bible offered by an atheist – pen name “Transplanted Lawyer” (TL). He listed ten of what he considered the worst Bible stories and suggested what he saw as problems with each. Not very original but in his case the attitude is different (more agreeable to discussion) and he does make some fresh observations, interesting. In fact, he is an interesting person in many ways. Despite our differences he seems to be very normal, down to earth and decent. You can check out his profile here.
If you like these types of discussion then maybe you’ll enjoy the read.
Criticism number 5 on his list involves Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden. Obviously, there are many details to discuss in that short story but he focuses on the original sin or more specifically its after effects. He sees it as leading to improvements in human experience. Actually, in principle, I don’t disagree but our interpretations are quite different. His words are…
Original sin is making up your own mind about good and evil.
His arguments summarized are:
- He assumes the injunction not to eat of the tree was a means of keeping Adam and Eve from growing personally, i.e., thinking, experimenting, and learning particularly in regard to moral issues but ultimately leading to “a rejection of knowledge itself — a moral condemnation of learning and education.”
- The wisdom gained from eating the forbidden fruit enabled them to recognize the shame of their nakedness and they rightly manufactured clothing to correct this.
- God further disparaged their ability to think, act and create for themselves when He replaced their fig leaf clothes with skins from animals, a form of brow beating.
- Without elaborating on the issue, TL insinuates God was responsible for the whole problem anyway since He placed Adam and Eve in such close proximity to temptation.
- He implies that Satan is implicated but without malfeasance suggesting he was doing what any decent person would do for the oppressed. Read more
Who’s The Terrorist God or Pharaoh
Filed under: Abraham, Answering an Atheist, Political Issues
Answering An Atheist
Original arguments are found in the post “Top Ten Worst Bible Stories”
On the web site “Not A Potted Plant” (NAPP)
In a previous post I began responding to an atheist’s (TL) criticisms of certain Bible stories and the first one focused on Jesus’ response to the Pharisees and Herodians when they queried him about Roman taxation. TL suggested Romans were the enemy and Jesus’ response was collaboration. You can read his arguments here and my response here.
Since atheists are not believers and usually judged as indifferent by those who are, some might wonder why I bother responding. It might seem like a waste of time. But, the truth is, an atheist will often ask openly what believers only wonder about quietly. And these questions need to be explored.
It is only the fearful and insecure that react defensively and run. So, we should be thankful the criticisms are made and diligent in our efforts to think through them.
The next criticism (number 2 on his list) involves God’s handling of the Egyptians during the Exodus, particularly in the matter of the Passover. You are probably familiar with the story.
At midnight on the evening of the Passover any family who failed to comply with the ceremony (evidenced by no blood on the door post) suffered the death of their firstborn child as well as the first born of all cattle.
Cattle were included because the bull was the Egyptian symbol of deity and owning cows was a symbol of status. In response, TL accuses God of terrorism. His words…
Terrorism is good if God says it is
In developing his argument he makes several observations some of which are misaligned with the facts and others just plain miscalculated. The arguments are: Read more
Jesus – Good Citizen or Collaborator
Filed under: Answering an Atheist, Christian Living, Political Issues
Answering An Atheist
Original arguments are found in the post “Top Ten Worst Bible Stories”
On the web site “Not A Potted Plant” (NAPP)
I recently came across a blog post entitled “Top Ten Worst Bible Stories.” The blog goes by the name “Not A Potted Plant” (NAPP) which obviously says nothing about the author or the content but he does explain the reason for the title in the FAQ’s and a little additional perusing helps to fill in other gaps. He goes by the pen name of “Transplanted Lawyer” and I refer to him by the acronym LT.
From the profile you learn the author is a normal sort of guy and the content clearly indicates he is coherent, observant and thoughtful. He is an atheist and a bit glib on occasions but always fair. The fair part is what got my attention.
Any person can pick a side and be belligerent about it and there are many who do exactly that. They are completely intolerant toward and offer no fair discussion on points of difference. Fortunately, that description doesn’t fit LT. Unfortunately, that is particularly true of the “religious right” (RR1).
Actually, RR are my roots but honestly speaking, I have to admit that the most dominant characteristic of this political sector is the inability to carry on a fair discussion regarding any issue. They don’t talk nicely to each other and they don’t discuss issues with an open mind.
- Taking the “half loaf” approach to negotiation doesn’t figure into their political or religious strategies.
- The capacity to “agree to disagree” is dwarfed.
- Building relationships around common issues in the hope of influencing change on others is not a skill they own.
- If ideologies don’t match up to the letter, the differing parties are shunned or worse, run out of town, the modern day equivalent of burning at the stake. Thank God better minds have changed that trend.
It would be nice if the RR folks would just “take their ball and go home” but unfortunately that isn’t an option. Humanized religious chivalry requires a fight to the death, although they wouldn’t admit to the humanized part.
Anyway, back to the “Top Ten Worst Bible Stories” by LT.2 I’ve decided to answer a few of his observations. I chose him not because Bible critics are few but because he is articulate (unlike some atheists, he actually knows and uses words longer than “four” letters) and he spars the issue rather than the opponent.
I doubt I will change his mind on the issues or anyone else’s for that matter but debate, when healthy, fair and respectful, is always useful.
I’ll answer only one (or a few) issues at a time, not in his order and not necessarily in consecutive posts. Here goes. Hope you enjoy. Read more
Tim Pepper - Beautiful Frustration