Evangelism – Nation to Nation
Filed under: Answering an Atheist, Old Testament, Philosophy, Political Issues
Answering An Atheist
Original arguments are found in the post “Top Ten Worst Bible Stories”
On the web site “Not A Potted Plant” (NAPP)
Author – Transplanted Lawyer (TL)
This post is number four in a continuing discussion on the conflict between Israel and Moab/Midian as recorded in the Book of Numbers, chapters 22-25 and 31. The original observations – complaints – regarding this event are made by TL which can be read here (number one on his list of ten). My first response is here and his first counter is here.
Because TL is widely read and has an exceptionally quick mind I consider it a privilege to have him as a sparring partner. No doubt his abilities will suit him well for the bench should his aspirations in that regard be realized. His quick thinking has made me sharpen my game.
The discussion with him is incisive without insult and firm but in a respectful way. I know you will enjoy the read also.
Suffice it to say that the event under discussion seems particularly gruesome. It was war and war is never nice even under the best of circumstances. As TL and countless others have pointed out, a certain number of deaths are expected but in the case of Midian it seems a bit extreme. The entire community was destroyed, even young boys, with the exception of virgin girls. I can’t imagine anyone not being disturbed by it.
Obviously, because God was involved in this situation – He ordered the counter attack in the first place – it is easy to assume that everything Moses ordered was exactly God’s plan. I don’t presume to understand everything God does but I do believe there are reasons He should not be implicated every time difficulties arise. He is a third party, sometimes silently so, and we must at least try to see where the fault lines lay before assuming His guilt. Previously I have suggested that Moses acted in the extreme and went beyond God’s original intent.
My primary arguments are:
- Israel was not the aggressor.
- The intentions of Moab/Midian were clearly violent but their strategy was cleverly deceptive. They tried to divine a curse on Israel and when that failed they used wile, enticing them with their sexually oriented religion, to demoralize them. The second plan worked but not sufficiently enough to destroy Israel’s or God’s resolve.
- God ordered the attack on Midian but did not specify the extent to which it should be executed.
- The women who were destroyed were frontline soldiers or spies, not collateral damage or the subjects of a genocidal frenzy. Without them the ruse would not have been effective. His order to execute them, therefore, is not completely without justification.
- I have argued that the order to destroy every male came from Moses not God. This is the real issue.
Everyone is very quick to take the Midianite side and speak of their anguish but not fair minded enough to spread that love around, ascribing to Israel (and God) a venomous nature. The truth is, Israelites were just as human as any and “rising above” was sometimes out of reach for them as well. Israel had very good reason to be hurting from this event and it doesn’t take a degree in psychology to figure it out.
It was only because Midianites were distant relatives of Moses and because Israel’s first encounter with a Midianite (Jethro – Moses’ father-in-law) was positive that the ruse was as effective as it was.
It is not unreasonable to see this was personal for Moses and it isn’t strange that his response would be so vengeful.
As mentioned previously, his worst characteristic was his anger and it had gotten him into trouble on more than one occasion. He also had a tendency to take action impulsively and God pronounced a final judgment on Moses as recent as Numbers 20. He was to die before entering the promised land and Joshua would take his place.
Even as God gave the order to counter Midian aggression He reminded Moses that he would be removed from the scene following the battle. I’m sure that reminder laid heavily on his mind. It doesn’t justify his actions but it does explain it.
In his rebuttal TL makes additional suggestions which I would like to answer here: Read more
Moses Massacres Midian
Filed under: Answering an Atheist, Old Testament, Political Issues
Answering An Atheist
Original arguments are found in the post “Top Ten Worst Bible Stories”
On the web site “Not A Potted Plant” (NAPP)
Author – Transplanted Lawyer (TL)
There are two absolute No-No’s when reading the Bible. One is never wear rose tinted glasses (Christians do this) and the other is don’t precondition the text with modern perspectives (critics do this). Christians tend to extract from the text sentiments that aren’t there. Critics do just the opposite, imposing on the text preconceived ideas. Both start with an assumption and then proceed to draw it out or weave it into the text. Both approaches narrow the mind and have the same affect, distortion. Neither is really honest.
Take Abraham for example. He fathered his first child by Hagar, his wife’s handmaid – polygamous. According to cultural practices of the day this was acceptable but according to biblical teachings it was not.
It is fair to be forgiving. Abraham and Sara were faced with difficult and unusual circumstances. But justifying polygamy as anything other than adultery is going a little too far and that is what believers tend to do.
Non-believers, particularly atheists, are quick to pounce on that. Polygamy, or any other form of sexual divergence, may or may not be a problem for them but they are clever enough to see the contradiction between what the Bible teaches in one place and what believers say it teaches in another. Read more
Slavery, Rape and Gays In the OT
Filed under: Answering an Atheist, Old Testament, Political Issues
Answering An Atheist
Original arguments are found in the post “Top Ten Worst Bible Stories”
On the web site “Not A Potted Plant” (NAPP)
Author – Transplanted Lawyer (TL)
The Complaint
Slavery
Rape
Gays
Some parts of the Bible are admittedly difficult to understand and for that reason can be easily misconstrued by those who don’t believe.
Unfortunately, believers (and I am one) tend to skirt these issues or flavor them very favorably in light of the way people think, feel or act today. We over-read benevolence on the part of the Hebrews and overstate malice on the part of their enemies. Those of the opposing opinion easily recognize the bias and readily point it out.
Before we Christians judge and dismiss them, however, we must admit that they couldn’t make the criticism if they hadn’t at least read the Bible and the popular ideas associated with it. In fact, I have often been amazed at the clarity with which nonbelievers have articulated what we believers think. They have listened and we should respect that.
Recently I came across a blog authored by “Transplanted Lawer” (TL) who openly admits to being an “atheist” and, true to form, has asked some very pointed questions about difficult passages in the Bible. He actually targeted ten Bible stories he considers the worst and after saying what he thought was bad about them left an open challenge for anyone to respond. I accepted.
No, I’m probably not the best person for this task but I am interested and besides I like this guy. He has a great sense of humor, plays Scrabble, is agreeably conversational and fair. He has a fair knowledge of Christian issues and has been a reasonable antagonist. You can see his original challenge here, his acknowledgement of my acceptance here and so far I have responded to:
These are stories number 8, 2 and 5 respectively.
Before reading his blog I had written a post that answers number 10 on his list, accusing Jesus of racism. I left a link to my post on his blog and he was responsive enough to read it and comment.
The topics we’ve discussed so far are interesting but none of them carry the same weight as the three issues we look at now which are, in TL’s words:
- It’s okay to have slaves as long as you don’t beat them too badly. Number 7
Should a slave owner strike a male or female slave with a rod, and the slave dies immediately, the owner shall surely be punished. But if the slave survives a day or two, there shall be no punishment; for the slave is the owner’s property. Exodus 20:20-21
- Rape victims must marry their assailants. Number 6
If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, he shall pay the girl’s father fifty shekels of silver. He must marry the girl, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives. Deuteronomy 22:28-29
- Capital punishment for homosexuality. Number 4
If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them. Leviticus 20:13. Read more
Who’s The Terrorist God or Pharaoh
Filed under: Abraham, Answering an Atheist, Political Issues
Answering An Atheist
Original arguments are found in the post “Top Ten Worst Bible Stories”
On the web site “Not A Potted Plant” (NAPP)
In a previous post I began responding to an atheist’s (TL) criticisms of certain Bible stories and the first one focused on Jesus’ response to the Pharisees and Herodians when they queried him about Roman taxation. TL suggested Romans were the enemy and Jesus’ response was collaboration. You can read his arguments here and my response here.
Since atheists are not believers and usually judged as indifferent by those who are, some might wonder why I bother responding. It might seem like a waste of time. But, the truth is, an atheist will often ask openly what believers only wonder about quietly. And these questions need to be explored.
It is only the fearful and insecure that react defensively and run. So, we should be thankful the criticisms are made and diligent in our efforts to think through them.
The next criticism (number 2 on his list) involves God’s handling of the Egyptians during the Exodus, particularly in the matter of the Passover. You are probably familiar with the story.
At midnight on the evening of the Passover any family who failed to comply with the ceremony (evidenced by no blood on the door post) suffered the death of their firstborn child as well as the first born of all cattle.
Cattle were included because the bull was the Egyptian symbol of deity and owning cows was a symbol of status. In response, TL accuses God of terrorism. His words…
Terrorism is good if God says it is
In developing his argument he makes several observations some of which are misaligned with the facts and others just plain miscalculated. The arguments are: Read more
Jesus – Good Citizen or Collaborator
Filed under: Answering an Atheist, Christian Living, Political Issues
Answering An Atheist
Original arguments are found in the post “Top Ten Worst Bible Stories”
On the web site “Not A Potted Plant” (NAPP)
I recently came across a blog post entitled “Top Ten Worst Bible Stories.” The blog goes by the name “Not A Potted Plant” (NAPP) which obviously says nothing about the author or the content but he does explain the reason for the title in the FAQ’s and a little additional perusing helps to fill in other gaps. He goes by the pen name of “Transplanted Lawyer” and I refer to him by the acronym LT.
From the profile you learn the author is a normal sort of guy and the content clearly indicates he is coherent, observant and thoughtful. He is an atheist and a bit glib on occasions but always fair. The fair part is what got my attention.
Any person can pick a side and be belligerent about it and there are many who do exactly that. They are completely intolerant toward and offer no fair discussion on points of difference. Fortunately, that description doesn’t fit LT. Unfortunately, that is particularly true of the “religious right” (RR1).
Actually, RR are my roots but honestly speaking, I have to admit that the most dominant characteristic of this political sector is the inability to carry on a fair discussion regarding any issue. They don’t talk nicely to each other and they don’t discuss issues with an open mind.
- Taking the “half loaf” approach to negotiation doesn’t figure into their political or religious strategies.
- The capacity to “agree to disagree” is dwarfed.
- Building relationships around common issues in the hope of influencing change on others is not a skill they own.
- If ideologies don’t match up to the letter, the differing parties are shunned or worse, run out of town, the modern day equivalent of burning at the stake. Thank God better minds have changed that trend.
It would be nice if the RR folks would just “take their ball and go home” but unfortunately that isn’t an option. Humanized religious chivalry requires a fight to the death, although they wouldn’t admit to the humanized part.
Anyway, back to the “Top Ten Worst Bible Stories” by LT.2 I’ve decided to answer a few of his observations. I chose him not because Bible critics are few but because he is articulate (unlike some atheists, he actually knows and uses words longer than “four” letters) and he spars the issue rather than the opponent.
I doubt I will change his mind on the issues or anyone else’s for that matter but debate, when healthy, fair and respectful, is always useful.
I’ll answer only one (or a few) issues at a time, not in his order and not necessarily in consecutive posts. Here goes. Hope you enjoy. Read more
Tim Pepper - Beautiful Frustration