No Financial Commitment
No Unity
Solidarity does not exist only with the commitment of one person. It is a thing of beauty demonstrated when a group of people move in unison. It is not an easy thing to achieve. If it were, they wouldn’t award Olympic metals for synchronized swimming.
It requires a lot of discipline to develop and much courage to execute. The military attempts to instill solidarity in basic training so fewer people die in battle and it also multiplies the total effect. Small groups of soldiers have been known to effectively retard the advance of forces several times their size because they fought in unison courageously. The WW II Battle of Lanzerath Ridge is a case in point. There is great power generated when a group of people, large or small, act in unison.
The only option to solidarity is disunity which eventually becomes disparity. Solidarity is another word for unity and there is no question that each group of believers (local church) is to have unity (solidarity). Solidarity is not “agreeing to disagree.” Solidarity occurs when each member of a group demonstrates the same level and type of commitment to a common cause. People who have solidarity agree on the goals they wish to reach and the things they’ll do to achieve them. These people trust each other, depend on each other and have agreement on important issues. This type of relationship requires more than just words. It is never superficial.
Solidarity was another issue Jesus emphasized in the Sermon on the Mount and the one way He taught we could demonstrate solidarity with God was through the proper management of mammon (material resources). Jesus referred to God and mammon as two different and diametrically opposed masters. We must choose one over the other. To love one is to distrust the other. To serve one is to enslave the other.
According to Jesus, a primary obstacle to solidarity with God was money. Therefore, money is also a primary means of expressing solidarity. And whatever you do must be consistent. The key to effective money management is regularity. If your retirement plan is based on saving then you must save consistently and regularly over an entire life time to realize the desired goal. Whatever you do to honor God with your money must also be done dependably, regularly and consistently over an entire life time.
All of that is to say that tithing consistently and faithfully is an important way to demonstrate your solidarity with God. When others do this also, the solidarity includes a larger group. The power on a human level is multiplied and God’s blessings are as well.
How you relate to God determines how you relate to God’s people. If you have learned to trust God with your finances you will not be very comfortable working closely with Christians who haven’t. You might love them and wish to include them but when there is no financial commitment then there is always a question.
Entire nations never have solidarity. Large percentages of any nation rarely have it. Agreeing to disagree is what they do because they cannot establish solidarity. God’s people, however, must have it and Tithing is one way to catalyze it. In fact, it isn’t solidarity if it doesn’t include finances.
THINK!AboutIt?
This is devolving into the absurd. I started a new job today and don’t have time for this anymore. I may post a bit more on my blog, but the truth is I can’t overcome your unwillingness to actually take the Bible at face value. I am saying that God never, ever commanded anyone to give 10% of their regular income. You’re saying that He told Abraham to, even though there is no actual Scripture to confirm it. And you don’t see how absurd that is. You don’t understand what I’m talking about when I mention the common practice of the ANE culture, and maybe that’s my fault for not explaining it correctly. And then you write an absurd comment using polygamy as an example of Abraham being counter-cultural (????).
Goodbye, EnnisP. This will be my last post on your blog. It was fun while it lasted, but ultimately it appears that not even Scripture can shake some firmly held traditions.
You are making big assumptions about the 10% rule before the law.
They also had many of the 10 commandments on the Rosetta Stone which predated Moses. Do we assume those were completely pagan before Moses wrote them in the law? Would it be right to assume the early cultures were totally uninfluenced by God and motivated only by ulterior human motives or do we see many of their practices as evidence that God and His people did influence their lives even before the law?
The early cultures also offered sacrifices. Did they just decide to do this one day or was this practice influenced by Noah and his descendants? Do we assume Abraham, following the example of the locals, offered a tithe as a tax to Melchizedek, who wasn’t the head of any government and certainly had nothing to do with Sodom?
It is absurd to assume that Abraham, chosen to be the father of faith, was in the habit of mimicking the local cultures. Polygamy was the understood marriage arrangement in his day and for very good reasons (enlarging the family = security) but it was a long time before he gave it a try and he was very sorry for it when he did.
BTW, do you have a text which clearly establishes monogamy? Even the law of Moses regulated polygamy. I don’t know of anyone who would suggest monogamy wasn’t “commanded” by God before Abraham.
“And my problem with a giving program with no specified amount is not only that some will give less then 10% but I also think some will feel compelled to give more and that is equally unfair. ”
That’s your problem, not a Biblical problem. I don’t share your reservations, and I’ve seen and been involved in plenty of churches that operate just fine without a compelled amount. Do you have any relevant Scripture to back up your position here.
“Personally, I think 10% represents enough of a stretch for anyone (even the wealthy) to require faith and when done by the group as a whole provides enough substance to get the job done apart from unusual, out of the ordinary, situations in which more is needed.”
Then do what you personally think is appropriate but don’t twist Scripture to fit your personal opinions. Don’t pretend that Scripture teaches something it doesn’t. Don’t tell people that God commands them to do something which He doesn’t just because personally you think its a good idea.
“And you think they required 10% because it was easy to calculate??? Come on. These are the people who built the pyramids.”
I’m just telling you what the consensus is about the historical record. Plenty of Babylonian documents from the patriarchal period show how common the idea of a tenth was. Are you now going to argue that the ANE people gave 10% because God told them to as well. And yes, the common man needed an easily calculable amount to know how much to give. Their architects and astronomers may have been effective mathematicians, but the common man still needed an easy percentage. Even if that’s not the reason for it, the historical record still shows that a tenth was a common percentage for ANE individuals. There is still no reason to think that God commanded Abraham to give a tenth to Mel and no reason to think that it was a normal practice for Abe to give a tenth of increase to God.
And you still have no Scriptural command from God for general tithing. Just personal opinion which empirical and Biblical evidence easily refutes.
I’ve admitted nothing about Abraham’s situation being a special circumstance. I do admit there were situations in the OT when the circumstances were out of the ordinary (building the first Tabernacle, destruction of the Midianites and so on). In both situations the tithe was probably exceeded.
And my problem with a giving program with no specified amount is not only that some will give less then 10% but I also think some will feel compelled to give more and that is equally unfair.
Personally, I think 10% represents enough of a stretch for anyone (even the wealthy) to require faith and when done by the group as a whole provides enough substance to get the job done apart from unusual, out of the ordinary, situations in which more is needed.
And you think they required 10% because it was easy to calculate??? Come on. These are the people who built the pyramids.
I hope you respond but unfortunately it is late here and time for bed. Will answer tomorrow.
This thread just won’t die.
“Churches properly managed don’t get by on less than 10% and it takes experience and intel, not “common” sense, to understand that.”
First, you’re assuming that if the tithe is not compelled, people will give less than 10%. Every example of freewill giving in the Bible militates against that (Moses and the tabernacle, David and the temple, the Macedonians, widow’s mite, Barnabas, etc.).
Second, you may say it takes experience and intel, but wouldn’t Scripture be sufficient to help us understand that? Oh, that’s right. There is no Scripture commanding the tithe.
“I usually don’t look for Spirit leading when I have clear instructions before hand or can figure out what to do otherwise”
You don’t have clear instructions. You have now admitted that the recorded example of Abraham and Mel does not represent regular tithing, but was a special circumstance. Unfortunately, there are no examples of regular tithing anywhere in Scripture. And no commands from God regarding regular tithing anywhere in Scripture. None. Zilch. Nada. Yet you still cling so hard to it to the point of making up examples (like Abraham). Ancient near east cultures regularly used a tenth for tax and worship purposes because it is easy to calculate. Since Abraham was an ANE individual, it makes perfect sense that when he runs into Mel and wants to give a portion, he chooses the standard ANE amount. There’s no reason to assume this was a regular thing.
In another post of yours you said that the purpose of tithing was never to meet a need. I’d encourage you to actually read what the Bible says about the purpose of tithing. The only commanded tithes (that’s right, there were no other commands from God regarding tithing outside of the Mosaic law), which were under the Mosaic law, were to meet a definite need, the sustenance of the Levites and the widows and poor. Oh, and that one tithe which was for partying, er, feasting. So once again, you are making statements that are easily contradicted by Scripture.
Actually, I will probably write a post in which “common sense” is featured as a argument FOR tithing especially in view of what the Bible actually says.
I wouldn’t want to get into a strung out argument about this but I usually don’t look for Spirit leading when I have clear instructions before hand or can figure out what to do otherwise (and I am not arguing against the Spirit’s leading).
So experience tells us to give up to 10%, and common sense helps us figure out how much to give above that? Is there any room for Spirit Led instructions, considering there is the Spiritual gift of giving?
Churches properly managed don’t get by on less than 10% and it takes experience and intel, not “common” sense, to understand that.
So common sense is good enough to figure out how much to give above 10% but not up to 10%?
Common sense. If the demand is bigger than the tithe your offering should be at least the difference. It can be more.
that didn’t answer my question.
How do we know how much to give above the tithe?
Whenever the demand is bigger than the collective tithe of a particular group of people.
Whenever you wish to express gratitude or be generous or engage in charity personally.
Whenever you feel so inclined for any reason and it doesn’t upset your basic budget which always includes the tithe.
There is never a time, however, when the tithe doesn’t belong to God and shouldn’t be paid. If you do more, the tithe is covered. It is moot then.
how do we know how much to give when the time calls for the tithe to be superseded?
Believing that Abraham tithed on increase, other than spoils of war (which represented no increase for him at all), does not involve assumption. With Jacob committing to this principle on all his increase only two generations later (very much in the context of Abraham’s culture) and the law including other forms of increase as well it is really more assumption to think Abraham didn’t.
Regarding Numbers 31, there is not absolute agreement on how the numbers (portions) are to be understood. If we calculate the numbers at face value then it actually works out to be less than 1% if we don’t include the precious metals given by the soldiers which was actually a free offering. With that money included it was probably much more than a tithe which was probably also true when they took the offering for the Taberncale (the total offerings were more than a tithe) in which case to demand a tithe on top of that would be overkill.
The tithe is a principle to be observed in normal, usual, everyday circumstances. When the situation calls for more, which does happen occasionally, the tithe issue is superseded.
One last thought. Generally we don’t project backwards. What happened in Numbers 31 and Exodus 35 were unusual events. In both cases more than a tithe was collected. In neither case regulations given to eliminate tithing as a principle to include God in our finances.
EnnisP,
Hebrews 7 states that Abraham’s tithe was on the spoils of war. Since the Word of God takes the time to let us know what he tithed on, we have no liberty to assume that there is an unknown.
Hebrews 7:4
“Just think how great he was: Even the patriarch Abraham gave him a tenth of the plunder!”
Since Israel was told to give 1% of their increase in spoils(Numbers 31), how would you explain that tithing regulations changed from Abraham to Israel? What else is mind boggling is how the tithing regulation was actually looser on Israel under the law than it was for Abraham out of the law!?
Regardless of proof about whether Abraham tithed on the spoils, or only tithed once, or did it voluntary, explain why Israel was only required to give 1% if tithing on increase transcends the regulations of the OT law?
Not only that, Israel never gave tithes until they entered the promised land. With all of the wealth they gathered from the Egyptians, the only call to give off their increase was asked by those with a willing heart (Ex. 35).
– jared
I’m sorry. This is getting old. When I say we say we don’t have to prove anything, I’m saying that because we are not taking the affirmative position here. If you are affirming the statement: “The tithe is a command for NT believers” it is your responsibility to prove it. All we have to do is show why your reasoning is flawed. We don’t have to prove the negative, we just have to disprove your affirmative. I’ve posted my own affirmative on my blog. You can try to refute it if you’d like.
“You haven’t shown anything about the law status of the tithe.”
Wait, what? We’ve shown its frequency (2x yearly, plus one every three years), its amount (~23%), its conditions (on farmers and ranchers), and its purpose (support of Levites, poor, and widows). Then we posed the question, why did ALL of those change for NT believers. Why don’t you teach the tithe the way God did in the OT? And why don’t you teach the rest of the levitical code as commanded by God? Because the Jerusalem council said we don’t have to. They came to the conclusion that we are freed from the law and asked the Gentiles to keep certain parts of the law for testimonies sake. You know what they didn’t include? That’s right, the tithe.
And Hebrews does not clearly show that Abraham’s tithe was the same as the levitical tithe. The point of the Hebrews passage is to show how Melchizedek had a better priesthood because he received offerings from Abraham (and by extension, Levi). They are most certainly not the same. They differed in frequency, amount, compulsion, and actual items being tithed on. The point of the passage is who they were given to, not what was being given.
The test of my argument has nothing to do with my own affirmative position. The test is whether or not I can show the weakness of your argument. My own affirmative is on my blog now. You can try to show the weakness of my argument. Just because I haven’t given my position until now doesn’t make yours the default position. That’s not good argumentation.
If you don’t have to prove anything why do you and others work so hard to “prove” that tithing is not there. Not only is it well represented in Scripture, it has been the historical practice for a very long time.
You haven’t shown anything about the law status of tithing.
Everyone agrees there were many different offerings taken and for various purposes under the law and sometimes it is confusing trying to keep track of it all but that doesn’t argue against tithing.
We should expect there to be diverse expenses during the national formation of Israel. But, none of those offerings were a replacement of the tithe. And Hebrews clearly identifies the tithe paid by Abraham as the same as the tithe paid in the law. If you want to question what it was and how it worked exactly (smoke screen – not an argument) fine.
What you and others have done is take clear statements from Scripture and distort them. “Tithe is only a mathematical term.” Sure, what would you expect an abstraction?
The real test of your arguments is your answer to the question “how does a person determine how much and how often to give?” I hope you don’t back out. I have asked other non-tithers to give us an idea. So far no one has done that.
“All the arguments are based on assumptions. Because the Bible doesn’t specifically mention it you and others assume it didn’t happen. That isn’t a good way to prove anything.”
We are not the ones trying to prove something here. Do you understand the idea of proving the affirmative? If you are trying to say that tithing is a COMMAND for NT believers, YOU have to prove that. Assuming it did happen is not a good way to prove something either.
And even if Jacob was right to put conditions on his gift does not make it a COMMAND. The Scripture does not say that God commanded him to do it. You can’t say, “Well, I think God commanded it, so you have to do it to.” You are assuming something happened and like you said before, assumptions are not a good way to prove anything.
“No one has yet to prove that tithing practiced by Abraham was not the same in principle as tithing under the law. ”
We showed that it was a different amount for different purposes given from different resources. Isn’t that enough? You rejected our argument because you assumed Abraham did give the same amount for the same purposes from the same purposes even though the Bible doesn’t say he did. Assumptions are not a good way to prove anything.
“No one has proven that free will offerings took the place of tithes under the law. There is nothing to suggest it and there is no reason to think it.”
You haven’t even heard our affirmative case yet and you’re already denying it. Sheesh. Be patient. There is plenty to suggest it and plenty of reason to think it. Some of us just like to be careful with the logic and reasoning in our blog posts so it takes time.
“By your rule people are thrown in the dark with ideas like “free will offerings” and “what you can afford.” Life doesn’t operate that way and God doesn’t either. If you encourage people to do something, other than tithe, be clear about it.”
Again, just wait for our affirmative. Spend more time thinking about all the logical problems with your own affirmative. I never said “what you can afford” is a Biblical principle so I don’t know who you’re talking about here.
Your last paragraph is a waste of my time. You are begging the question by assuming that it is a person devising a better plan. As if you are the one sitting on the authority of Scripture and we’re making it up as we go along. Remember, you are the one making assumptions to bolster your position. That is not a very high view of the sufficiency of Scripture. And just because God doesn’t lay it out in detail doesn’t mean that we’re thrown in the dark. God commanded us to pray but He didn’t specify how often and how long. God commanded us to read Scripture but He doesn’t specify a frequency and length. God can give general principles and allow us to work them out personally.
Mark,
No one has given substantial arguments to prove that Abraham did not tithe on anything other than the spoils of war. All the arguments are based on assumptions. Because the Bible doesn’t specifically mention it you and others assume it didn’t happen. That isn’t a good way to prove anything.
No one has proven Jacob’s vow to be anything other than a commitment to give ten percent of all his increase (tithe). The only arguments against this idea are: One, he was putting conditions on God and, Two, there is no evidence he actually gave anything. The conditional argument isn’t true and the other can’t be proven. Even if the arguments were sound they don’t prove tithing was not the principle of choice.
God told us to test Him where tithes are concerned and there is no proof Jacob didn’t tithe.
The “condition” argument is, however, nonsense and anyone who can read can figure that out. I discussed the idea in The Long History of Tithing.
No one has yet to prove that tithing practiced by Abraham was not the same in principle as tithing under the law.
No one has proven that free will offerings took the place of tithes under the law. There is nothing to suggest it and there is no reason to think it.
All of these things together (and there is more) become the basis for tithing. It constitutes your “command.” Another statement on top of this would be redundant. Requiring something additional to this is argumentative. Not making a clear statement about fiscal responsibility is senseless.
By your rule people are thrown in the dark with ideas like “free will offerings” and “what you can afford.” Life doesn’t operate that way and God doesn’t either. If you encourage people to do something, other than tithe, be clear about it.
Tithing is logical, practical and fair. Any person who devises a better plan, so be it, but it must be clear. People want to know what they should do. Any giving not based on sound reason is emotional. That is not a good way to do God’s work.
Don’t get me wrong. I’m not looking for simple proof-texting. You are the one who is trying to say that the tithe is required or a command for NT believers. Answer this one question before we move on. Yes or no: Is a NT believer commanded by God to give 10% of his regular income to the church?
If your answer is yes, all I’m looking for is support for that command. You can do that one of two ways. Either show where God issues the command, or show that the overwhelming example of believers in Scripture attests to that practice. If there’s a third way to establish a requirement for NT believers feel free to let me know and show it that way. You said you had an avalanche of Scripture but we haven’t yet seen one that fits the pattern of 10% of regular income. Not a single one.
I don’t know why you would think I don’t like it when my rules are turned on me. I am more than happy to deliver a Biblical approach to giving. I have in fact thought it through very carefully, but I just need a little time to get all my research in order. And its not a “show me the one verse” idea. All I’m asking is to be shown from Scripture why I’m apparently commanded to do something.
Yes I go to church. It is funded by the freewill offerings of believers. There is no compulsory tithe. I’m not going to tell you what I give because that is private between me and God. Its a no-win scenario for me. If I give a lot, I look like a Pharisee for saying so. If I give less than 10%, you think I’m robbing God. And for you to even bring it up in this argument is a red herring to the actual issue and the actual issue is this: “Is tithing a Scriptural command for NT believers?” You seem to answer in the affirmative and when we question your reasoning, you expect us to prove the alternative. But it is incumbent on you to prove your affirmative. You can’t just say, “This is true because I don’t see another alternative.” If your statement is not supported by Scripture, you can not affirm it. I’ll give you an alternative, but first you have to be willing to bend your understanding of giving to Scripture.
Actually the “show me the one verse” is your rule not mine. You obviously don’t like it when it is turned around. I will look forward to your post designating what we should do and will probably comment. I might get philosophical in my responses. Hope you won’t be offended.
Just curious. Do you go to church and if so how are the ministries funded? Are you going to tell us what you give and how you decide what it should be? I genuinely believe that would be more useful than hacking on tithing. It would certainly be more respectable.
An avalanche of statements? Really? You still haven’t answered the question I posed on my blog and in that last comment. Find where God gives a general command to tithe off of regular income, or find one example of a person in the Bible who did it. You’ve mentioned Abraham, which I and other commenters have shown was completely irrelevant since it does not represent tithing as you teach it. You’ve mentioned Christ and the Pharisees, which again is completely irrelevant to the question at hand since they were still under the levitical code and were not actually tithing off of income, but off of their herb gardens so its not representative of what you’re trying to teach about the tithe.
Then you tried to say that the tithe is the same as the moral code, making its command akin to “thou shalt not steal”. But they’re not on the same level. The tithe is part of the levitical system, which has in fact passed away now that we are all priests before God.
And talk about smokescreening. I now have to give a verse that shows where I can skip the tithe if I can’t afford it? You are the one saying Christians are commanded to tithe. You have the responsibility to show that from Scripture. What I am saying is that you can not even show God commanding believers in general to give 10% of their income. And on top of that, you can’t show any believer in Scripture ever setting that example. But we do have a lot of examples of freewill offerings. Paul discusses them quite a bit with the Corinthians. Abraham’s tithe to Melchizedek. Moses requesting materials for the tabernacle and David doing the same for the temple (yes, those were freewill offerings, not funded by the tithe). A veritable avalanche of examples. And none for yours. None.
I am working on a post that details a believer’s responsibility in giving. I’ve taught on it in the past and just need to go over some of my old notes. I’m sure it won’t satisfy you since you think God needs to direct people down to the exact amount otherwise He’s violating His own rules of decency and order. But you can’t even tell me if my tithe needs to be off of gross or net and whether benefits play in and what about my investments and windfall, etc., etc., etc.
But what you need to realize is how ridiculous these philosophical posts sound when you haven’t laid down the doctrinal truth of the tithing command (and yes, I have read your previous posts).
Oh yes. I don’t think I said anything about gross income anywhere. I believe that is a personal decision. I wouldn’t argue either way.
Mark,
The first few posts in this series discussed what the Bible actually says about tithing. This and the last few posts were aimed at philosophically reinforcing the practice and solidarity is an important concept throughout Scripture.
No, I didn’t point out one specific text but the Bible does give an avalanche of statements which you and others have worked hard to smoke screen. And, while doing that you haven’t spent much time telling me and other interested parties what we must do financially.
And again, we don’t usually encourage anyone to believe anything based on one verse of Scripture especially when there are quite a few to choose from.
Would you give me one verse of Scripture that says you can skip the tithe anytime you can’t afford it. Can you give me a Bible statement to define at what point God thinks I can’t afford the tithe. I am sure a lot of people would like to have that information. Without it we are destined to make an emotional decision.
Would you care to go on record telling us what you do give. I don’t mind telling you that I tithe and give a bit more on top that regularly.
Solidarity as an argument for the tithe. That’s a new one, I must admit. Basically, you’re argument is, “Solidarity is a good idea, if everyone does something exactly the same way then there is solidarity, so we are required to tithe.” Again, you still haven’t shown, in any of your posts that God, through the clear teaching of Scripture, requires the tithe of NT believers. Not only that, but by saying God requires 10% of a person’s gross income, you’re saying that God requires NT believers to tithe in a different way than any other saint ever recorded in Scripture.
And instead of showing your teaching from Scripture, you take certain principles (like unity or firstfruits) and pretend that those principles require the tithe.
The argument in this post is as much of a stretch as the rest of your arguments. It doesn’t matter if tithing catalyzes solidarity. It only matters if Scripture teaches that NT believers are required to tithe. Stop trying to make general principles require the tithe and just show us where the Bible clearly teaches that a tithe is required of NT believers in a different way than any other person at any other time in Scripture. Show us the 10% of gross income clearly taught in the Bible.